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  • GRM at the moment

    Firstly, I would like to thank Gabe and Ceejay for some of the recent changes.

    1. The addition of caps to the transfer market has limited the ability to make dubious transfers, which was spoiling part of the game.
    2. The ai was changed and the positive that I could see was that defense are reacting quicker and this has specifically resulted in isolated players getting turned over a lot more, which is a big positive. I also feel that the tackling is more effective.

    Secondly, and I'll admit up front that I am biased in this as I have been investing in training for several seasons to play a specific type of game that suits the players strengths in the squad. It feels some of the current changes to the ai seems to have addressed the symptoms of the high scores rather than the cause of the high scores. I specifically still see the following cause of the high scores:
    1. There are still endless gaps in defense, especially from first phase where a quick flyhalf can run at the line, without any pressure and put the centres into gaps all the time.
    The difference I see is that players without any pressure are failing to pass properly, and consistently knocking on without any pressure, and then we are talking about players with 90+ in the relevant skills. They are ok when playing flat but whenever I go to standard backline depth they struggle to find the receiver.
    It is possible that the amount of missed passes and handling errors are close to real life statistics, but the difference is those poor passes and handling errors in real life are usually caused by massive pressure from the defense, while in GRM these mistakes are often made without pressure.
    The point being that attack is still running through these gaps the scores are just lower, because the final pass to beat the last defender are usually not going to hand.

    Like I said I am biased in this, as I trained a team for several seasons to be able to keep ball in hand and try to avoid contact through passing, as I knew I don't have the players to win a physical battle, but that is what I always enjoyed about GRM, that one team can be successful with a physical game, another with a kicking game and another with a running game, provided that you develop the required skills.

    However despite being biased, I'm not enjoying watching games where you end up setting a strategy to kick anything in your own half, not because it plays to your teams strengths but because you don't trust players with 90+ passing to pass the ball to the next player, and the result of the dropped pass is a try against the run of play.

    Just as a case in point of this, I had a training game where we missed 5/50 tackles for a success % of 91% but conceded 5 tries due to attackers scoring without defenders touching them.

  • #2
    I can confirm that I experience similar things. My full back with handling 82, high ball 87 cannot catch a kick even though no one's around. He had 4 handling errors in the last game trying to catch return kicks. We had 16 handling errors overall and lots of them as you mention without any defenders in sight.
    In defense, I play in league 14, so probably not against the fastest fly-halves, so I see slightly different things. Often, the defender of the second receiver, turns and runs towards the third receiver leaving a gap for the 12 to run in. Teams do that against me as well, so my 12 can run in.
    2. When I analyze how players get isolated, I often baffled by the action of the players who are supposed to support. Sometimes they just stand, sometimes the run away from the direction of the support. Sometimes it's all legit and they just don't manage to get there in time. That's what's so confusing/frustrating.. AI knows what to do, but does not do it.

    There have been lots of explanations that there is an element of randomness like IRL, so weaker teams have a chance to beat stronger teams. But maybe the implementation is not 100%. Tactics like correct line speed, luck like intercepts should definitely play a role, but, as you say, 90+ handling players repeatedly dropping balls without any pressure maybe is not very realistic.
    I'm not sure how it is set up.. is it a straight up positive or negative boost for all the skills?

    Comment


    • samuelrambo
      samuelrambo commented
      Editing a comment
      I wouldn't be questioning the implementation. There is no proof that it isn't working.
      Are you saying that everyone with 90% handling should never drop the ball? And how do you know there is no pressure? Is it an absence of defenders in his face? Could a player with yards of space not be thinking of the next thing he has to do and drop a ball cold? It happens regularly in real life.

    • samuelrambo
      samuelrambo commented
      Editing a comment
      FYI my Stars this weekend had 17 handling errors, and almost every single one of them was a ball lost in contact. Does that mean there is something wrong with the game? I don't think so - we don't make 17 handling errors every week. I blame the strategy we used. I am reminded of the old adage of garbage in, garbage out. Poor results are often (but not always) the outcome of poor strategy.

    • moujik
      moujik commented
      Editing a comment
      I'm just reporting it. If high skilled players are meant to not being able to catch long kicks consistently in some games, then developers don't have to do anything. If they think it's an abnormality they have this info.

  • #3
    In the last AI update no changes were made to handling, passing or defensive reaction time.

    Comment


    • gpred
      gpred commented
      Editing a comment
      The base number of moves player has was reduced.

    • zagrijs
      zagrijs commented
      Editing a comment
      Ok, thanks.

    • samuelrambo
      samuelrambo commented
      Editing a comment
      I've definitely noticed the change from the initial experience factor to the present experience factor. There's no question that the introduction of experience has had a positive impact on options taken with the ball in hand - I've seen some brilliant tries, and elusiveness seems to be particularly evident when a player gets into space. Like you, zagrijs, I simply had a few training games this past week where handling was sloppy - but it isn't always sloppy, and when we get it right it looks awesome.

  • #4
    I find it very hard that after doing a lot of work, basically for good will, the most common feedback given is something along the lines of,

    'I appreciate all the work but I think the changes are bad'

    We went through a really good period where people would provide evidence for what needs to be improved. Now they generally just give anecdotes like, based on a handful of observations, conveyed metaphorically, with no numbers or other evidence to back anything up.

    I don't feel like that's fair, and I don't think it really helps progress the game forward in a directed manner.

    Comment


    • zagrijs
      zagrijs commented
      Editing a comment
      Fair enough, seeing as I started this post I read it as a reaction on this post.
      I agree my approach of communicating areas that one thinks might need improving can be better.

    • michaelbolton
      michaelbolton commented
      Editing a comment
      gpred I wanted to say I love the game a lot, and thanks for making it all happen. I have loved almost every change you have made, finances, stadium, experience have all improved the game. 

      If I have 1 or 2 things I would like you to take a look at what is the best way of doing it? I appreciate they might not be fixable or it might be a lot of work for little benefit but I would like to make some suggestions. They are almost all small things in the gameplay which happen occasionally or may even be me misunderstanding how these things are calculated.

      I was going to try to send you a PM but apparently yours are full

    • gpred
      gpred commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks mb, you can pm if you want, I have cleared some space.

  • #5
    We appreciate what you do but changes have an effect on the game and have impact on the game, we dont complain but talking about the effect of the changes. This is what I experience the past few weeks, take it as a feedback..and I attached proof or illustration towards it

    It may or may not be an issue but the past few weeks I notice the following.
    Tries scored too easily
    Defenders (99kg) with a 99 defense rate just been run over or beaten
    Gaps created due to the fact that defenders dont move towards the ball carrier or turns their back on the attacker allowing him to slide through the defense which led to a try most of the time.
    Offloads are too easy to make
    Where are the backs? I saw the tight 5 in defense vs opponents backs at least 3 times this weekend instead of any backs, there can be a lot of reasons for this but will keep an eye on this.

    As the adding of experience contribute to a better attacking ability and desicion making of players, therefor maybe the high scoring games, it should have the same effect on the defenders ability to defend and taking better decisions on defense.

    I attached an illustration with regards to point 3.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	defense issues.jpg
Views:	426
Size:	121.6 KB
ID:	21240

    Comment


    • samuelrambo
      samuelrambo commented
      Editing a comment
      For the try in question, how quickly was the ruck formed and the ball recycled? If this was a ruck that was formed and the defensive line was set for a few seconds, I can see how it would be frustrating as a defending coach. If all five players converged on the ball runner then surely that would leave enormous gaps in the defensive line which would then be exploited by putting the ball through the hands in the ensuing phase?

    • Cento
      Cento commented
      Editing a comment
      Can this perhaps being minimised by training awareness to increase reaction time?

    • gpred
      gpred commented
      Editing a comment
      Yes it can be minimised by training awareness.

  • #6
    Originally posted by zagrijs View Post
    ... I had a training game where we missed 5/50 tackles for a success % of 91% but conceded 5 tries due to attackers scoring without defenders touching them.
    How many points did your team score in this game? Which training team were you playing? If you had to make only 50 tackles then you'd have somewhere between 60-80% of the ball.
    When you have this much of the ball, errors are bound to happen. With the Stars I play a very possession-oriented game, and as a result we turn the ball over a lot due to handling errors, sloppy passing and poor work at the breakdown. (I accept the Stars are hardly a perfect test subject, such is life.) Quite often it is errors by players who are less capable, but not always.
    I'd be prepared to bet that the Bulls will win every single game they play with 60-70% of possession, despite the number of errors they make. That is because they would make a lot more errors if they weren't trained as well as they are.

    Comment


    • zagrijs
      zagrijs commented
      Editing a comment
      Which part do you mean to test, high possession being negative due to not finishing scoring or struggling to put phases together?

    • samuelrambo
      samuelrambo commented
      Editing a comment
      Whether having high possession is indicative of lower scoring.

    • zagrijs
      zagrijs commented
      Editing a comment
      My experience has been that it depends on the type of team and strategy.

  • #7
    Originally posted by zagrijs View Post
    1. There are still endless gaps in defense, especially from first phase where a quick flyhalf can run at the line, without any pressure and put the centres into gaps all the time.
    The difference I see is that players without any pressure are failing to pass properly, and consistently knocking on without any pressure, and then we are talking about players with 90+ in the relevant skills. They are ok when playing flat but whenever I go to standard backline depth they struggle to find the receiver.
    It is possible that the amount of missed passes and handling errors are close to real life statistics, but the difference is those poor passes and handling errors in real life are usually caused by massive pressure from the defense, while in GRM these mistakes are often made without pressure.
    The point being that attack is still running through these gaps the scores are just lower, because the final pass to beat the last defender are usually not going to hand.
    Haven't you already identified a fix to the issue? Playing a flat attacking line? I have also found this to be quite an effective strategy with the ball in hand.

    How are the handling error rates this season for the players in question compared to their career averages? I'd look at them myself but I don't have access to the cream of the crop given the Stars are in League 2.

    I've certainly noticed guys dropping the ball cold - but no more than usual this season. By far the majority of the dropped balls I have seen have occurred in contact.

    Comment


    • zagrijs
      zagrijs commented
      Editing a comment
      I disagree that playing a flat attacking line should be done ,because you're concerned that the pass won't find the receiver if you play on standard. It should be a choice because you want to play flat, put attackers into gaps etc.

      It was higher in the training games I played, there isn't enough league games to draw a meaningful comparison, especially as there was changes made after game 1. The key though is isolating the handling errors without pressure and especially world class fullbacks fielding long kicks and missed passes without pressure and determining whether those are realistic numbers. This would be very difficult to determine especially the kick receipt as teams in real life tend to kick contestable kicks rather then long kicks.

    • samuelrambo
      samuelrambo commented
      Editing a comment
      Would it be simply a matter of increasing the high ball effectiveness (to fix one of these issues)?

    • zagrijs
      zagrijs commented
      Editing a comment
      I do think high ball effectiveness have a influence though since the player is not jumping but waiting to receive the ball, I don't think it should have a major effect. Part of my feeling is that it is more of an issue for shorter players (I don't have any evidence of that, it is just a feeling I got). These are players with very good high ball skills though.

  • #8
    Improvements in highball would be easy to fix. I'll have a look into it when I get a chance.

    Comment


    • gpred
      gpred commented
      Editing a comment
      The number one thing that makes you enthusiastic as a developer is hearing people are enjoying your game.

    • Cento
      Cento commented
      Editing a comment
      Gabe, I can assure you that we all enjoy this game, it is part of our daily life.Well for me I will be lost without GRM. I really appreciate your work, efforts. I believe we all try to get that perfect game but such thing will be impossible. From myself thank you, it is appreciated. Job well done.

    • gpred
      gpred commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks Cento. You are right that at the end of the day we all just want the game to improve.

  • #9
    Originally posted by Cento View Post
    We appreciate what you do but changes have an effect on the game and have impact on the game, we dont complain but talking about the effect of the changes. This is what I experience the past few weeks, take it as a feedback..and I attached proof or illustration towards it

    It may or may not be an issue but the past few weeks I notice the following.
    Tries scored too easily
    Defenders (99kg) with a 99 defense rate just been run over or beaten
    Gaps created due to the fact that defenders dont move towards the ball carrier or turns their back on the attacker allowing him to slide through the defense which led to a try most of the time.
    Offloads are too easy to make
    Where are the backs? I saw the tight 5 in defense vs opponents backs at least 3 times this weekend instead of any backs, there can be a lot of reasons for this but will keep an eye on this.

    As the adding of experience contribute to a better attacking ability and desicion making of players, therefor maybe the high scoring games, it should have the same effect on the defenders ability to defend and taking better decisions on defense.

    I attached an illustration with regards to point 3.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	defense issues.jpg
Views:	426
Size:	121.6 KB
ID:	21240

    Let's have a look at this from another point of view, perhaps more the attacking coaches point view,

    - In the first image with the players numbered 1 to 5 the ball carrier is hitting the ball at pace and looks to be targeting the channel closest to the ruck, the inside shoulder of defender 3. At this point he is probably well covered by defenders 1 to 3.

    - The defense is slow to react, as it will be sometimes. This opens up the option of changing angle more to the outside, which the ball carrier does.

    - The defense appears slow to react to this change too, again as it sometimes will be. They must now move laterally which combined with slow reaction limits their ability to move up.

    - The good work by the runner reading the situation means that only defenders 3 and 4 are in play now. You can see that defender 3 has tried to move accross but his slow reaction and perhaps poor acceleration have enabled him to be beaten on the outside in this particular case.

    - The result is the ball carrier has now essentially isolated defender 4. The defender is flat footed while the ball carrier is at pace so it is going to be a big ask to stop him before the line. In this case it proves to difficult and he scores.

    Terrific decision making from the attacker! Wonderful AI.

    That's the perhaps overly positive perspective.

    The negative one, which seems to be the one most often focused on is,

    Terrible defense. Woeful AI. Broken match engine.

    Which is right? Both to some extent. But I have gone through this excercise firstly to highlight there are two different views of everything that occurs in an opposed contest.

    But mostly the point I want to make is that it is not a question of whether the above events should happen. They absolutely should. If this never happened it would be a terrible problem, and if it always happened it would be a terrible problem.

    The question is how often should they happen?

    So what information can we collect that will help us answer that question?

    Perhaps something like what percentage of forward plays from rucks around the 5 m mark or less result in tries in GRM compared with Super Rugby would be a good start. If GRM is much higher then improving the reaction time of defenders might be a good target for reduction. Or perhaps collecting such data might lead us too another solution along the way.

    But if we could get the numbers in GRM being close to real life that would be a objective improvement, and a step forward for the game. But understand that poor defense can and should always happen.

    Comment


    • samuelrambo
      samuelrambo commented
      Editing a comment
      All too often you hear from the people who have experienced the negative, and not the positive. Personally I am never comfortable talking about how brilliant my own players are and the brilliant things they do, because that's not what I've been brought up like. I am guilty of focusing on the negatives as a coach, because I want to fix things that I identify as problems within the constraints of the game. I always blame my players, as they are the ones who fail to execute my masterful strategy. Occasionally I get my strategies wrong, and I'll openly acknowledge this. One thing I will not do, though (and if I ever have or do, it will not be intentional) is blame the game.

      In all seriousness, though, we need to be more cognizant of the fact that for every piece of poor play from our own players there is likely to be a piece of brilliance from the opposition that has influenced this. I think where people get frustrated (and jump on the keyboards) is when you see a boneheaded dropped ball that leads directly to a score against you, and you're just fuming. This happens in real life. I challenge anyone who is a fan of any sport athlete or team to hold up an example of a faultless performer in every game they play. They don't exist!!

      Another way you can take this, gpred, is that while some people may only have criticism in their vocabulary, at least they're still engaging with the game. Ultimately that's what the game needs - well, paying users, to be more accurate - for its long term future. But I will take note of these comments and will dial down my reactions to my own players' foul-ups. They are only bots, after all, and this is only a game.

  • #10
    I'd like to add something else while we are on this.

    I'll confess to being nowhere near as good a manager as some might believe - I have been fortunate in my career in RD and GRM to have had the luxury of some pretty incredible players in the teams I have managed. A lot of good fortune came with getting these guys.

    Imagine my surprise in recent seasons to find that players who come with higher objective player ratings (OVR, in particular) have been found to be less effective for the game at least one of my clubs likes to play. If the game was simple and "it worked", there would be no place for the likes of Filo Simpson, Jordan King, Christo Slabber and Manny Iglesias for the Stars as all of these guys have had team-mates who were objectively better than them in their respective positions. How can it be that the team performs better both subjectively (the eye test) and objectively (the stats) when these guys are playing ahead of their more highly rated counterparts? Reality, that's what.

    Same goes for guys like Logan Johnson and more notably Jim Turner at Border. This guy is an 83 OVR and when you look at him he's no Stanley Morris or Jacques Cronje - but he's the heart and soul of Border and plays out of his skin every game.

    Sure, not every player is like these guys. My point is, though, that the fact this can happen is what makes this game fun and exciting as a manager. It is not a hack, or a cheat - but rather it is giving guys an opportunity and seeing what they can do. Turner hasn't missed a game since he was first named Border's no. 8 (except to injury). He wouldn't have gotten that if I'd picked the higher rated player in his position.

    This game is fun on so many levels. Let's remember this before we start complaining emotively about what are relatively minor things.

    Comment


    • #11
      Hi Gabe,

      Thanks for looking into the high ball situation, and all your effort in improving the game. In terms of your post above on looking at objective stats and whether the amount of times tries are scored by forwards 5m out too easy. I took it a step back by just looking at overall defense in super rugby versus grm. This gives the following information:
      Team Meters carried Carries M/Cr
      Crusaders 8851 2234 3,961952 Auckland Aces 4,31
      Hurricanes 8390 2096 4,002863 Belfast Bulls 4,60
      Chiefs 7408 2002 3,7003 Broken Hill Blues 3,86
      Sharks 7146 2006 3,562313 Bucharest Bombers 4,33
      Jaguares 7079 2152 3,289498 Canterbury Patriots 4,57
      Blues 7060 1998 3,533534 Cape Town Blitz 4,52
      Lions 7002 1964 3,565173 Bloemfontein Patriots 4,65
      Reds 6970 1914 3,641588 Rotorua Keas 4,11
      Sunwolves 6915 1793 3,856665 Edinburgh Blues 4,23
      Highlanders 6744 1864 3,618026 Glasgow Tigers 4,26
      Brumbies 6574 1793 3,666481 Harare Rockets 4,54
      Rebels 6423 1815 3,538843 Hawkes Bay Hornets 4,45
      Bulls 6395 1778 3,596738 Helsinki Vikings 4,24
      Waratahs 6296 1864 3,377682 Hiroshima Pirates 4,88
      Stormers 6003 1775 3,381972 Johannesburg Tigers 3,82
      Average: 3,619575 Melbourne Gorillas 4,65
      Nadi Raiders 3,91
      Palmerston North Rabbitohs 4,71
      Papatoetoe Boars 4,68
      Preston Pythons 4,03
      Augusta Buddha 3,84
      South Sydney Stars 4,83
      Soweto Hammerheads 4,44
      Springfield Spartans 4,76
      Sunshine Coast Pirates 4,56
      Tallahassee Ninjas 4,43
      Toronto Torque 4,28
      Wagga Wagga Wasps 5,01
      Walvis Bay Samurai 4,26
      Wanganui Pirates 4,49
      Wellington Hurricanes 4,06
      Wellington Lions 3,91
      Average 4,38
      The above is based on 2019 super rugby stats and season 7 league 1 stats, simply because at that time we were collecting stats so I had season 7 stats ready, whereas more recent stats would take a bit of time to compile.

      From here it should be easy enough to see if the differences are due to forwards or backs etc, to pinpoint where players in grm are making more meters.

      Comment


      • Cento
        Cento commented
        Editing a comment
        Gpret are you referring to the illustration I added as isolated example, which is not the case.?

      • gpred
        gpred commented
        Editing a comment
        No, it's just a general comment about the value of stats v footage.

      • danielw
        danielw commented
        Editing a comment
        Yep, what I also meant was rugby stats without context are near-meaningless. For example, if the average number of line breaks in matches between competitive sides in the sim was the the same as in real rugby, it is not necessarily a satisfactory answer because you'll need to know how many line breaks occurred from set pieces/1st phases, second phases, and so forth relatively to real life games. And we all know it is not easy to breach defensive lines in real-life top rugby games, unless building phases, creating overlaps and space by sucking in defenders.

    • #12
      i have a doubt about wages what is the ammount to start offering for a player the reserve ammount or the transfer fee offer?

      Comment


      • danielw
        danielw commented
        Editing a comment
        The bid you want to make must be at least equal the player's listed reserve price, otherwise it won't have a chance of being successful.

    • #13
      Originally posted by FernandoCalvin View Post
      i have a doubt about wages what is the ammount to start offering for a player the reserve ammount or the transfer fee offer?
      Didn't realise that changing wages was an option?

      Comment


      • samuelrambo
        samuelrambo commented
        Editing a comment
        Fernando means the transfer fee. Changing wages is not an option.

    • #14
      After the latest update, I've seen a lock, a flanker and a prop box kicking off the ruck in both league and training has anyone else noticed it?

      Comment


      • samuelrambo
        samuelrambo commented
        Editing a comment
        Can't say I have. You must have prodigiously talented players.

      • GrahamNZ
        GrahamNZ commented
        Editing a comment
        I've seen it, but don't consider it a biggie.

      • GrahamNZ
        GrahamNZ commented
        Editing a comment
        I have seen a lot more intercept passes and knock-ons in the tackle.
        Last edited by GrahamNZ; 12-24-2019, 10:37 PM.

    • #15
      Merry Christmas te every one, I pray for blessings and abundance for all of you and that GRM will go from strength to strength.

      Comment

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