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  • Player creation

    Hi guys,

    I think most of us agree that the player creation model is working really well, and that we would only like some more variety.
    My suggestion is to simply increase the range of values per position per skill, to make the range of options per position larger. That should create a situation where you can have a lock that is better at handling than another or better at fending etc. I would limit this to skills to prevent us from having guys with too high combinations of speed, acceleration, strength and agility.

    The second suggestion is to add risk profiles to players where you can have a risk averse player or a risk taker, the first type would take safe options, i.e taking contact rather than throwing a dangerous offload, while the second type would take the risky option that could lead to great tries, but also potentially cost the team.

    Thirdly is just to ask that the median speed / acc that outside centres be created with be adjusted to 85, with maximum around 87.

  • #2
    All good points Zagrijs and I fully agree. For me I would like to place a priority on your first and third points with the second one maybe included as a future feature.

    Comment


    • #3
      Sounds plausible, although I would like to know what "larger ranges" means - for example, if handling currently ranges from 45-65 for a youth lock, does that mean in the future it would be 40-70? It could also mean for each position those ranges should be pre-defined, or are we simply saying increase the ranges for all positions by +-5 points per skill category?

      I like the idea of introducing player personalities. Would need clarity how personality traits will be influenced by skills such as awareness and discipline though. For example, how will a high discipline score interact with the propensity of Romeo Jack, an extravagant mid-fielder known for his trademark risky offloads, to make risky plays, etc.

      I agree in some instances the speed of outside centres is very slow to what you expect from real life scenarios where outside players have pace abound. It does not make sense that some loose forwards will have very similar mobility than outside centres - either one group's mobility too high or the other too low.

      Comment


      • GrahamNZ
        GrahamNZ commented
        Editing a comment
        I agree with Zag's last post.
        Perhaps just the core skills and secondary skills should be displayed for each player, depending on their position.

      • danielw
        danielw commented
        Editing a comment
        Ah, excellent explanation - now I'm glad that I posed these questions. I fully understand where you're going and it is making sense to me!

      • zagrijs
        zagrijs commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm happy to do a similar breakdown for other positions but it will take a bit of time as work is very busy, with lots of things from pre lockdown now coming back all at the same time as more businesses open.

    • #4
      Complicated solutions come with greater expectations. If we look at grouping skills into different levels, we should be aware that there are different layers as well.
      There are skills that a player can improve training by himself like goal kick and there are skills like break tackle, that depend on the opposition. Do we say that goal kick improves equally for all, but break tackle improves based on other players in the same team and partly on the league opposition? Shall a stronger player train Scrum faster? Shall a more agile player train Elusiveness faster?

      1. You will need quite a bit of sample size (few seasons) to notice any difference. The percentage of useless players will increase, good or bad?

      2. I believe, we can diversify Discipline to include risk taking or rather deviating from the set strategy.

      We'd get as much Personality from my simple idea of no max limit on one random skill than meticulously fine tuning each set of skills for each individual position and much faster

      3. Outside centres seem to have been faster in the past. It'd be interesting to know why (if) they became slower. Otherwise I agree it seems hard to find OC youths with 85+ initial Speed.

      Comment


      • VanHunks
        VanHunks commented
        Editing a comment
        You are starting to sound like the official political opposition as opposed to airing your own agenda. I'm voting president Zagrijs at the moment...

      • zagrijs
        zagrijs commented
        Editing a comment
        @Moujik
        1. Your idea is very unrealistic - Props that can kick as well as flyhalfs, 80kg Scrumhalfs that can scrum as well as props etc.
        2. It is likely to lead to the same problems that resulted in the regen with quick backs playing in the forwards.
        3. Your saying it will give personality - the only skills that has anything to do with personality is Leadership, discipline and at a stretch Awareness. The rest are just skills not personality. So with the exception of Leader which really only affects the captain and organiser which has a small part personality the rest is more just skills, the rest aren't personalities.
        4. Your idea doesn't solve the objective / problem of what I would like to see changed in player creation (at least not very effectively). You admitted that in an earlier response, it might solve a different problem, but not the one that was brought up on why changes were requested to player creation.

      • moujik
        moujik commented
        Editing a comment
        zagrijs Thank you for the comments! it illustrates where misunderstanding might lie..
        1. There are not gonna be lots of props with good kicking. Once in a blue moon there might be a prop with good kicking and I believe it's realistic.
        I don't know if the creation is equal by position but let's say props make 2/15th of all created players.. Kicking is 1/15th of considered skills (without LO jump, LO throw, GK), present range 40-60 (?) so there is 2/3 of a chance it will fall outside it with 40-99.
        2/15 x 1/15 x 2/3 = 0,0059
        So 0.6% of players might have that anomaly and 0.3% (80-99) will compare to backs. So statistically there won't be even one every season..

        if you take into consideration that the player might not be usable othewise the chances are even slimmer.
        2. So there might be a couple of employed backs with good scrummaging in a player's lifetime, so it won't be like pre-regen.
        3. You think offloading does not give personality, why then when a player is good at it, a Sonny Bill reference surfaces straight away?
        4. I understand. It's just a simple idea to give some character quickly, thus making players in the same position differ from each other. But our ideas are not mutually exclusive. So while we gradually apply your idea, the changes might not be apparent for a while, so I came up with mine to see some change quicker, while being minimally intrusive.
        Last edited by moujik; 08-21-2020, 04:04 PM.

    • #5

      Inside Centre:

      Core skills:
      Passing, handling kicking, Tackling, Awareness

      Secondary skills:
      Goalkicking, elusiveness, Fending, Break Tackle, High Ball, Finesse, Offloads.

      Tertiary skills:
      Ruck, scrum (since it affects mauls

      General skills:
      Discipline, Leadership - For these the range can be very large.

      Irrelevant skills:
      LO Throw, LO Jump - leave as is.

      Comment


      • #6
        Outside Centre:

        Core skills:
        Passing, handling, Break Tackle, Tackling, Fending

        Secondary skills:
        Elusiveness, Kicking, High Ball, Finesse, Offloads, Awareness,

        Tertiary skills:
        Ruck, scrum (since it affects mauls), Goalkicking

        General skills:
        Discipline, Leadership - For these the range can be very large.

        Irrelevant skills:
        LO Throw, LO Jump - leave as is.

        Comment


        • #7
          Fullback:

          Core skills:
          Passing, handling, Elusiveness, Kicking, High Ball, Tackling, Awareness

          Secondary skills:
          Finesse, Offloads, goal kicking, Break Tackle, Fending

          Tertiary skills:
          Ruck, scrum (since it affects mauls)

          General skills:
          Discipline, Leadership - For these the range can be very large.

          Irrelevant skills:
          LO Throw, LO Jump - leave as is.

          Comment


          • #8
            Wing:

            Core skills:
            Elusiveness, Finesse, High Ball

            Secondary skills:
            Awareness, Tackling, Fending, Break Tackle, Handling, Kicking, Passing, Offloads

            Tertiary skills:
            Ruck, scrum (since it affects mauls), Goal kicking

            General skills:
            Discipline, Leadership - For these the range can be very large.

            Irrelevant skills:
            LO Throw, LO Jump - leave as is.

            Comment


            • #9
              Scumhalf:

              Core skills:
              Passing, Handling, Awareness, Kicking

              Secondary skills:
              Elusiveness, Tackling, Fending, Break Tackle, High Ball, Finesse, Offloads

              Tertiary skills:
              Ruck, scrum (since it affects mauls), Goal kicking

              General skills:
              Discipline, Leadership - For these the range can be very large.

              Irrelevant skills:
              LO Throw, LO Jump - leave as is.

              Comment


              • #10
                Looseforward:

                Core skills:
                Ruck, Awareness, Discipline, Tackling

                Secondary skills:
                Elusiveness, Fending, Break Tackle, Handling, High Ball, LO Jump, Scrum, Passing, Offloads

                Tertiary skills:
                Kicking, Goal Kicking, Finesse

                General skills:
                Leadership

                Irrelevant skills:
                LO Throw

                Comment


                • #11
                  Lock:

                  Core skills:
                  LO Jump, Scrum

                  Secondary skills:
                  Awareness, Discipline, Tackling, Elusiveness, Fending, Break Tackle, Handling, High Ball, Offloads, Ruck

                  Tertiary skills:
                  Kicking, Goal Kicking, Finesse, Elusiveness, Passing

                  General skills:
                  Leadership

                  Irrelevant skills:
                  LO Throw

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Hooker:

                    Core skills:
                    LO Throw, Scrum, Tackling,

                    Secondary skills:
                    Awareness, Discipline, Fending, Break Tackle, Handling, Offloads, Ruck

                    Tertiary skills:
                    Kicking, Goal Kicking, Finesse, Elusiveness, Passing, High Ball

                    General skills:
                    Leadership

                    Irrelevant skills:
                    LO Jump

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      Prop:

                      Core skills:
                      Scrum, Tackling,

                      Secondary skills:
                      Awareness, Discipline, Fending, Break Tackle, Handling, Offloads, Ruck, LO Throw

                      Tertiary skills:
                      Kicking, Goal Kicking, Finesse, Elusiveness, Passing, High Ball

                      General skills:
                      Leadership

                      Irrelevant skills:
                      LO Jump

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        "Personality", if it relates mostly to leadership and discipline is another interesting development area - one I would fancy as I eluded to in above posts - but I see that as a possible future project as it may involve re-config the AI to give greater meaning to leadership and discipline in a game context. I think what we are aiming for now is simply to extend the range levels of certain skills per position, but not core or specialty skills that define such a position.

                        Comment


                        • zagrijs
                          zagrijs commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Agreed Dan,
                          I think key which might not have been clear is the grouping of skills are not meant as anything formal, rather just guidance to make it easier to set ranges, rather than setting a range for every skill on every position individually, you then just set it for the group and all skills within that group has that range.
                          It would also mean it is a lot easier to make changes because you just update the range for the group rather than updating each skill individually.

                      • #15
                        James Goneva 24yo on TL right now is one example of us getting more than we bargained for. He could have been a star had he been generated using a previous model. He's useless now unfortunately.

                        Comment


                        • samuelrambo
                          samuelrambo commented
                          Editing a comment
                          moujik, I think this guy could play in League 3 - but probably would struggle in League 2 and 1 because these are the best leagues with the best players.

                          Also you make gross generalisations about the player generation model based on one player - I've got players with handling like his and they are more than capable of holding on to passes. Its not like he's going to drop the ball every second pass thrown to him. Nobody has seen this guy play. It is hard to say whether he's useless or not based on a skill set. You are always complaining about how dumb players are - this guy could surprise you! Wait and see him play, and then cast your judgement on whether he's useless or not.

                          I've seen guys with better OVR with terrible games, and play consistently below expectations - does that mean they are bad? No. Does that mean they can't have bad games? Of course not. Likewise for lower OVR players - it is no guarantee that these guys won't play well.

                        • samuelrambo
                          samuelrambo commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Nobody's trying to stuff the game up, or to stifle development.
                          Are you telling me that you wouldn't have snapped this guy up as a cheapie if he appeared on your Free Agents list with a view to possibly seeing what he might be worth to another team, as Zagrijjs has done? I'd have done the same thing. Sadly he wasn't on any of my team's FA lists. He sure makes a difference from the players I see 98% of the time.

                        • moujik
                          moujik commented
                          Editing a comment
                          samuelrambo that's precisely why I decided to mention him in the first place. I got excited at a first glance Then I looked closer and got dejected..

                          Interesting views! It's all useful info.
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